I am excited to share an interview with my friend Penny this week. What has impressed me the most about the outdoor adventures she goes on with her family are all the trips she takes in the winter. I haven't taken our kids snow camping yet, but hopefully we will try it this winter and I will be asking her for advice. I hope you enjoy the interview!

This winter we made a major redesign on our ski van sleeping system which has been working great during Covid. Here are all the details on what we did, also released as an update to our Sienna Ski Van page.

As engineers, we are constantly thinking about how to improve our systems. We also got complaints from our growing children about the lack of space above the cots. So for the 2020/21 ski season we made a major upgrade to our system.

The biggest change is that instead of the home made cot system that sits on the dashboard of the car we bought two aluminum frame military-style cots and set up a system to use them in the van. This makes for a faster set up and gives the kids much more headroom.

To fit the cots into the car, we fully recline the front seats (like in our previous version) and slide the center legs of the cot around the front seats:

The cot legs in the front of the car sit on a wooden board that rests across the two front seats for stability. 

For the rear of the cots, we support them on a dowel that is hung from the handles:

To keep the cots from sliding around, we loop the webbing through the dowel inside the cot:

To store the cots while we are driving, we build two boxes that are placed behind the front seats and attached to the captain's chair anchors on the floor. The boxes have notches where the cot support dowel and another 2"x2" bar go across them. A bungee is attached to hold down the lid and cross-bars for safety while driving. It is attached to the box in the back and the bungee hooks around a knob on the front of the box.

We take the wooden board that is used in the front seats to support the cots and put it across these boxes to create a bench in the back seat. This bench is incredibly useful for eating meals inside the van or for sitting on while you put your ski boots on. This has been important during Covid for making our van into a basecamp during bad weather.

The boxes are used to store hats/gloves/balaclavas/etc and toiletries. The sleeping pads for the kids and the window covers are stored between the bench and the back of the front seats. We use a bungee cord to keep the wooden board attached to the bench and a mesh bungee when we're driving to put helmets etc on top of the bench.

With the new system, the kids are a lot happier (at ages 11 and 7) so we can hopefully last for a few more years. And it works great during Covid where your car needs to be your home base.

We're excited to share another interview this week! This one is really interesting because we have a husband and wife giving two perspectives on how they make outdoor parenting work. 

Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had kids? Same, just much more frequently before kids!​
2. If you or your spouse were pregnant, did that person continue any of the activities and how did they modify the activity while pregnant?  Laura: I climbed until my harness didn’t fit anymore. Skiing stopped pretty early (3 mo pregnant). No ocean time on my kayak since pre-pregnancy. 
3. If you do different activities after having kids, why is that? Laura: I’ve lost touch with friends who I did outdoor activities with. We engage in activities we can all participate in as a family. Dennis: We do most of the same activities, just much less frequently. There is much less time for day outings or weekends away due to school/work, kid's activities (classed, birthday parties, playdates, etc.). 
4. How old were your kids when you started doing outdoor activities with them? Laura: First camping trip at 2.5, skiing at 3. Did lots of hikes with baby as carrier made it easy. Dennis: We had them try climbing around ages 3 or 4. ​
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with the kids? Laura: They love being outdoors. With skiing we have to tag team who is with what kid. They youngest needs more support. Dennis: Keeping the kids occupied and engaged, particularly downtime (such as setting up climbs) or waiting for their turn.

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as the kids got older?  Laura: Our oldest can ski and climb the same trails/routes we do. I no longer climb but my husband does. Typically, all four of us go so I can belay him and keep the youngest occupied as she waits for a turn. Dennis: As [our oldest] has gotten older, she has taken a genuine interest in climbing. Together with mental maturity, which means she requires less constant stimulation and is more patient. 
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kids interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kids interested?  Laura: When they were 4 and under, yes. Now they are happy and engaged during day trips. Dennis: They tend to stay interested on their own. But the kids getting tired is more of a challenge. Especially the little one, which will usually want to be carried at some point of the hike.  
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life?  Laura: I only have time on the weekends. In the winter we ski almost every week - it’s something we all love. Summer activities like camping and hiking aren’t as regular. Dennis: It is very tough during the week. We mostly engage in outdoor activities on the weekends. Since COVID, we have had more time on weekdays, for things like local nature hikes and bike rides, just like lots of other families. 
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kids activities (organized sports, music, school)?  Laura: We’ve boxed all kid activities Into Saturday  morning or weekdays to leave Sundays open. Dennis: It’s very challenging. There just isn’t enough time for everything. There are constant trade-offs. We try our best to talk to the kids and see what they want. 
5. How do you ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? Laura: Pre-COVID my husband went to climbing gym every week at the same time. I just don’t have the copious free time I did before kids and opt to spend my limited free time on other things like gardening, socializing, and yoga. Dennis: We’ve been supportive of each other getting out for “grown up” activities (such as climbing without the kids). But it’s hard to be away from the family all day. 
6. Have you ever received pushback on outdoor parenting from family, friends, or community? If so, how have you handled it? Laura: Not really. People ask questions as it can seem hard to get little kids engaged in outdoor activities but it has always felt like curiosity. Dennis: I wouldn’t say “pushback”. But there is often a perception by folks who don’t participate in outdoor activities like climbing or skiing, that these activities are dangerous. Explaining how these activities work (such as describing a climbing top rope setup) will often get folks to be less critical. 

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kids? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc).  Laura: Mainly seeing friends do it and getting inspired to try with my own kids. Dennis: We’ve had friends who had kids before we did. So we learned a lot watching them interact with their kids while doing outdoor activities. 
2. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Laura: Sharing a ski pass when one parent has to be with baby in the lodge. Nature scavenger hunts on hikes on when waiting for turn climbing. Dennis: I’ve given my kids a little extra climbing motivation by putting candy inside plastic Easter eggs, and placing them on holds or ledges at various points of the climb (both outdoors and at climbing gyms). It does work, although it can backfire as well. One time, I did not bring the eggs, and my daughter was upset “But I want to find an egg!”
3. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake?  Laura: You can’t do things the way you use to. Be flexible with yourself and your kids and have fun! Dennis: Georgia broke her leg skiing last winter. She got going too fast and took a tumble. I don’t think there was really anything I could have done to prevent it. But I kept replaying it in my head for a long time. Georgia has since fully recovered, and is rearing to get back on skis this winter.
4. If you could give one piece of advice to other outdoor families, what would it be? Laura: Get your family out there,  it’s hard when they are wee little ones but I never regretted a single trip. Dennis: Your kids might not end up enjoying all the same activities you do. Show them why you love these activities, and maybe they will, too​
5. What is your favorite piece of gear for outdoor parenting? Laura: For babies/toddlers a good supportive carrier for hikes. Ski harnesses were helpful with toddlers. Dennis: Not specifically outdoor gear, but definitely my favorite: a good camera (not a phone) to capture all those memories. Cameras on phones have come a long way, and obviously win for convenience. But a phone simply can’t match the image quality of a “real” camera in capable hands. I started getting into photography when our first child was born, and that interest has carried over to outdoor activities. My current camera is a mirrorless, full-frame Canon R. My favorite lens for outdoor activities is the 70-200mm, f2.8. It’s a big, heavy lens. But it lets you zoom in on the action. I can get close-up shots of my kids on the rock, or out on the water while standing on shore.

This week we have an interview with an outdoor parent whose children are grown up, so he has the perspective of taking them outdoors through all the stages of childhood. He is also a very experienced at orienteering, which I think is a great way to get kids outside that I haven't tried yet with my kids. He also happens to be my uncle, and when I was a kid I got to go orienteering with them. Enjoy!

When you decide to be a ski bum sleeping in your car with your family instead of buying or renting out a house or staying in a hotel, it does have an impact on your ability to socialize as easily with friends. You can’t exactly invite people over for dinner at your place, to reciprocate when they invite you over, so it’s easy to feel guilty about that. Here is how we tried to handle it pre-Covid, although working full time and wrangling kids onto ski-teams every two weeks often made things too stressful to effectively follow through on these plans. As always, we’d love more ideas on how to make this work! 

Pre-covid, we would arrive at the ski resort early, maybe 7:30 or 8 AM, and get a table inside and have breakfast. We had a group of other families that would also get there early that we could talk to (if we didn’t end up spending all our time getting the kids into ski gear and sunscreen and fed).

After skiing, we would also hang out at the resort but this time it would be a bit more relaxed. Any of us who were done skiing for the day early would wait in the lodge and chat with other families or play games. We would try to have some extra beers in the cooler in case an adult friend wanted one. The best night was when our friend brought an electric fondue pot and we all shared fondue together.

In the evenings we would go to dinner at one of the restaurants in the hotel near the resort, which also happened to be near where our friends lived. Many times we’d see friends there and hang out with them, especially since one of the restaurants had seating in the lounge area of the hotel. We did get to know another family that had a truck camper and we started seeing them more often in the restaurants, which was nice. As a bonus, the hotel had wifi so we could download books to read or movies to watch in the van.

Our friends would often invite us over to their places for dinner or après-ski. We would try to bring a bottle of wine or something over to share but we didn’t always remember to have something with us, especially when the invitations were last minute, or if we were worried about liquids freezing in the van. 

In a perfect world, this is what we would recommend doing:

• Bring extra food and drinks on all trips: look for things that you can share at the resort while you’re hanging out or have in case you get invited somewhere.
• Bring a good board game or card game to share - smaller games are good to play at the resort if table space is limited.
• If you are invited over, make sure you are good guests - help to cook and clean up.
• Look for places to eat dinner where you know people and invite them to join you and also places where it’s acceptable to hang out for a while.
• For crowded resorts (which never happened to us at Bear Vally) and when the weather is good, bring chairs and set up a tail-gate at your van and invite friends over.

During covid, we are going to need to focus on making time to hang out with friends outside when the weather is good and before it gets too cold at night. No more invitations to friend’s houses, but we will consider bringing snacks and drinks to share if people are comfortable with it. Unfortunately, we are probably going to need to refocus on how to eat in our van more and socialize within our family, such as more van-movie nights and playing games. But as long as we get lots of good days out there skiing it will be worth it!

Our van, in our favorite parking spot close to good dinner options and friends.

A note on this section: it is based more on research and less on experience than our average pages. My husband and I enjoyed backcountry skiing before we had kids but as of when this was written, we haven't done much with our kids yet. We have done plenty of tree skiing with our kids and have taken our oldest child on some side-country exploration with the Contour Startup Ski Touring Adapter, along with a friend whose daughter was on telemark. The rest of the information on gear is based on research.

First, safety: your kids cannot rescue you from an avalanche, except maybe if you have older teenagers, so you must be very careful about where you take them. The minimum age I’ve seen online for AIARE Level 1 classes ranges from 10-13, however I don’t feel my 10 year old would be strong enough to dig fast enough to rescue me and I would never want to put that responsibility on her. You know your kids best though, so make the decisions that are best for your family.

For younger kids, see if you can attend an avalanche awareness presentation for kids such as the ones given by the Nikolay Dodov Foundation. These sorts of presentations get the kids to start thinking about where avalanches can occur and what causes them, and the risks of getting caught in one.

Always bring a first aid kit and enough food and warm clothing to be prepared to handle the weather, especially when you’re hiking in tougher terrain such as in snow.

Backcountry touring setup options: (I have very small feet - 22.5 boots - so finding gear that fits small feet has been a battle for me since I started backcountry skiing)

• The Contour Startup Ski Touring Adapter fits into your binding and gives you a releasable heel. 
  • It works with boot sole lengths from 245-305mm, which means the smallest boot size is about 21.5
  • For our family with small feet, this means that it didn’t fit our kids until our daughter was 10.
• For skins, you can trim an old pair of adult skins to fit the kid’s skis.
  • Or sew tother scraps from what people cut off.
• Jones Snowboards makes a splitboard for kids, but the only size available is for bigger kids.
• Telemark (although boot size limitations seem to be similar to tech bindings so don't work for smaller kids).

Non-skiing/boarding options:

• Snowshoes - kids skis are small so you can fit them in your pack
• Bootpacking - KidProject.org recommends putting Yaktraks and micro-spikes on the kids boots to prevent slipping

DIY options:

• From a comment on KidProject.org: try putting cross country boots on straight skis with skins attached to the skis to get your kid uphill and carry their downhill skis.
• DIY kids splitboard setup
• Telemark 
• Modify an adult binding to fit a kids size boot.

How to start:

• First, get your kids to enjoy skiing or boarding in the trees and get them to a point where you feel they are doing it very safely.
• Next, try side-country gates or boot-packs at the resorts - get them to enjoy the benefits of putting some energy in to getting fresh tracks.
• Finally, look for some very safe hills to play around on. 
  • Use the opportunity to look at your local avalanche website with your child and discuss the risks.
  • Make sure to focus on enjoying the hike, because it will take up most of the time. Check out our page on keeping kids entertained while hiking.
  • Also make sure the kids put on and take off layers appropriately while hiking and switching to going downhill - those skills are not instinctive and you don’t want to end up with a hypothermic kid.
  • Turn around if the avalanche danger looks higher than you expected, and talk about it with your kids. That might be the most valuable lesson for the trip.

​
As I mentioned, we currently don’t have much personal experience backcountry skiing with kids. Here are some of the other helpful links I have found on backcountry skiing with kids:

• KidProject.org: one of their kids even competes in SkiMo.
• DadDispatches.com
• YukonBackcountrySkiing.com

This week I'm excited to introduce our friend Shannon. She and her wife are masters of organizing group camping trips, which we have been lucky to be part of for many years now. (They created the camping spreadsheet I shared last week). They have also started taking their kids backpacking and skiing, while impressively managing sports and activity schedules. She is right about how friends help kids hike more - when my kids hike with them they go much farther!

Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had kids? More Skiing and backpacking, kayaking, plus all that we do with kids
2. If you or your spouse were pregnant, did that person continue any of the activities and how did they modify the activity while pregnant? Not really, we got a cushier sleeping pad for car camping. 
3. If you do different activities after having kids, why is that? We haven’t taken the kids paddling yet, but we should be able to do that with our 9 year old soon. Our schedules are busier now with sports and kid activities, so we don’t necessarily prioritize our outdoor activities. We waited until age 7 or so to introduce downhill skiing, but did enjoy cross country skiing when they were young.
4. How old were your kids when you started doing outdoor activities with them? We started camping and hiking when the kids were just a few months old.
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with the kids? Working around the nap schedule! Trying to schedule a hike around a toddler’s nap is tough. 

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as the kids got older? Our schedules have gotten busier! Soccer, swimming, softball teams, birthday parties, etc. The kids are less enthusiastic about hiking now, but that usually dissipates after the first quarter mile. 
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kids interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kids interested? Candy. Lots of candy. Also, we just introduced the kids to geocaching and the kids are surprisingly interested! The best thing is having friends on a hike! Chatting with friends makes the miles fly by! Finding ways to make things fun by singing and playing games while hiking helps. 
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life? We try to get out for a hike every week. During our 2020 Shelter in Place we tried to get out one midweek afternoon each week for a hike. 
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kids activities (organized sports, music, school)? It’s hard! Our balance leans toward a greater commitment to team sports at the detriment of our outdoor adventures. That said, we don’t have a problem with taking off on a Friday after lunch a few times a year to get an early start to a camping weekend. 
5. If you have a partner, how do you ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? We take turns. She likes running so I make sure to be on kid duty so she can run. I play soccer, so she’s on duty then. When we’re outdoors together, we’re both on duty...with some breaks.

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kids? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc). We started with Strollerhikes.com when our oldest was a baby. Then we found a core group of friends who shared our interest in getting outdoors with the kids. Mostly we relied on our outdoor skills from before kids. 
2. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Put the baby/toddler in a snowsuit for chilly nights when camping. Bring extra blankets to pile on in the middle of the night.
3. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake? Not pushing the kids hard enough. They can do so much more than we think they can. 
4. If you could give one piece of advice to other outdoor families, what would it be? It is ok to start small, within your comfort zone. Just get out!
5. What is your favorite piece of gear for outdoor parenting? A small solar powered inflatable lantern. It is lightweight enough for backpacking, but creates a lovely soothing glow in the tent.

For our second interview we are excited to share Karl's experience as an outdoor dad. We have known him and his family for a few years. They are part of a group of families we go on group camping trips with a few times a year, until they moved back to Colorado. I have always been impressed with how they find the time to get into the mountains so often while they both worked full time jobs and also with the impressive hiking stamina of their daughter.

Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had a kid? Pretty much the same with less day hiking and more climbing, mountain biking and trail running.
2. When your spouse was pregnant, she continue any of the activities and how did she modify the activity while pregnant? We tried to keep up the outdoor activities.  We even planned a backpacking trip at about 5 months, but afterward we discovered that she needed to back off a bit.  She also gave up canoeing and climbing and any other activity that had a potential for jostling.
3. If you do different activities after having a kid, why is that? Our activities changed and how we approached those activities changed, partly to accommodate the safety and abilities of our child, but also because we were getting older and slowing down a bit.
4. How old was your kid when you started doing outdoor activities with them? 4 months.
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with your kid? Finding that balance between fun and exhaustion.

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as your kid got older? I’m not sure it has. We still work hard at pushing our child’s limits without harming them or making the activity miserable. Every year she can do more, so we do more.
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kid's interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kid interested? Hiking games! From Fetch the stick to 20 Questions to Name an Ingredient.  The games have changed as she has aged, but they are still very useful as the mileage increases. 
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life? Anyway we can (from maxing out our weekends to taking a six month sabbatical).
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kid's activities (organized sports, music, school)? We have avoided organized sports and have done everything we can to keep our weekends open. 
5. How do you and your partner ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? We have settled on a group of activities that we can all enjoy together. 
6. Have you ever received pushback on outdoor parenting from family, friends, or community? No.

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kid? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc) We have pretty much learned by trial and error.  We just kept doing what we liked to do and tweaked things along the way. Early on, I was also involved in a Bay Area group called Stroller Hikes, that organized mid-week hikes with the littles. They are still up and running and can be found at strollerhikes.com.
2. If you’re a writer, what are the blog posts, articles, books, videos that you have written/created that you think would most help other families?  Back when our daughter was little and I had more time, I published a blog with tons of stories and photos from our earlier adventures. It’s quite a good snapshot of our transition from an adventurous couple to adventurous parents. I currently have aspirations of adding some of our more recent long treks and the planning involved in making them happen. The blog can be found at somehowlost.com
3. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Just get outside. Go early and often.
4. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake? This one is hard.  I don’t want to say we didn’t make any mistakes, but honestly none of them mattered. We now have a daughter that is just as addicted to the outdoors as we are.

After a 5 month break, we are back with more page updates and some exciting plans to expand the content of OKH in 2020.

OKH changes:

• If you go to the pages for Activity Types you'll see they no longer links to the blog pages. They are now stand-alone information pages that also have a change log for each section, so you can see how recently it was updated and also track our progress improving the pages.
• Each week as we add new site content we'll release it in the blog at the same time, so you can subscribe to it in your blog reader if you'd like. It is also a great place for you to give us your feedback on the information. We'll monitor the comments and add your suggestions onto the main page later. All changes will be tracked that in the change tracker at the bottom of each page.
  
• Much more in the works to be announced later!

For this week, check out our new page update on "Where to park your ski van". This was originally written in December, but a family emergency derailed posting plans for a while. 

The best part of sleeping in a van or RV while skiing is the flexibility in where you can stay each night, depending on the weather or where the good snow is. Here are some tips on where to stay:

Legal parking:

• SNO-Park
  • Oregon SNO-PARK permits, Idaho Park-n-ski permits, and California SNO-PARK permits all have reciprocity
  • You can't overnight park at all of the California SNO-Parks, look for posted signs that prohibit it
•  ​Resorts that specifically allow it
  • There are some on-line lists of resorts that allow parking, but the best bet is to do a google search before you head to the resort for the most up to date info, since it sometimes changes
• Walmart - depending on the location
• BLM Land 
• Look for a campground that is open in the area, although most are closed for the winter
• RV campground - usually more expensive
• Hostels - some allow RV hookup and use of a kitchen for cooking

Stealth camping:

• Look for places that don’t specifically outlaw it - look at town ordinances
  • For example, many Colorado ski towns specifically outlaw it
• Make your van look as stealthy as possible, park your van late and move it early
• Look for resorts that don’t specifically have a rule against parking 
• Don't use uncovered Reflectrix in windows - cover it with dark tape or something, since it it makes it look more obvious that you're sleeping in there 

Other tips:

• Find places to get showers every few days if you don’t have showers, or place to get laundry done.
  • Camp at a RV campground or hostel, or splurge and get a hotel room for a night
• Park near a place that has bathroom access - especially useful with kids
  • Many SNO-Parks in California have pit toilets
  • Park near a hotel or lodge with bathrooms in common areas

It feels weird at first if you have not done it before, especially with kids. I had visions of getting in trouble with the police, which I didn’t want to do with kids. But it gets easier to do over time, and after a hard day of skiing all anyone wants to do is sleep anyway. 

We fit the bigger skis on the roof and the little kid skis in the trailer hitch box. Other items we put in the box are food, helmets, poles, backcountry gear (skins, probe, beacon), and ski backpacks. 

For storage inside the car, the big thing we did to make it easier was remove the console between the front two seats. We covered the hole that was left with a custom piece of carpet that we bought online in a color to match the car. We added two D-anchors in case we wanted to anchor anything between the seats and these are bolted down to the anchors that held the console in place.

Inside the car we keep clothes bags, any personal items (books, flashlights, etc), and ski boots, to keep them a bit warmer at night. During driving mode, these items are right behind the driver and passenger seats and anchored down with an elastic cargo net that clips onto the attachment points for the cargo seats (that is left behind after we took the cargo seats out of the car).

When we switch to sleeping mode, this stuff can be put between the two front seats, on the seats, or in front of the seats. Usually we put the car seats on the front seats first, then put the items in the spaces around them, before setting up the cot.

With this plan, the amount of time spent moving stuff around for set up and take down of the beds is minimized, and we've been able to fit in everything we need for a full week-long trip in the van.