I am excited to share an interview with my friend Penny this week. What has impressed me the most about the outdoor adventures she goes on with her family are all the trips she takes in the winter. I haven't taken our kids snow camping yet, but hopefully we will try it this winter and I will be asking her for advice. I hope you enjoy the interview!

We're excited to share another interview this week! This one is really interesting because we have a husband and wife giving two perspectives on how they make outdoor parenting work. 

Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had kids? Same, just much more frequently before kids!​
2. If you or your spouse were pregnant, did that person continue any of the activities and how did they modify the activity while pregnant?  Laura: I climbed until my harness didn’t fit anymore. Skiing stopped pretty early (3 mo pregnant). No ocean time on my kayak since pre-pregnancy. 
3. If you do different activities after having kids, why is that? Laura: I’ve lost touch with friends who I did outdoor activities with. We engage in activities we can all participate in as a family. Dennis: We do most of the same activities, just much less frequently. There is much less time for day outings or weekends away due to school/work, kid's activities (classed, birthday parties, playdates, etc.). 
4. How old were your kids when you started doing outdoor activities with them? Laura: First camping trip at 2.5, skiing at 3. Did lots of hikes with baby as carrier made it easy. Dennis: We had them try climbing around ages 3 or 4. ​
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with the kids? Laura: They love being outdoors. With skiing we have to tag team who is with what kid. They youngest needs more support. Dennis: Keeping the kids occupied and engaged, particularly downtime (such as setting up climbs) or waiting for their turn.

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as the kids got older?  Laura: Our oldest can ski and climb the same trails/routes we do. I no longer climb but my husband does. Typically, all four of us go so I can belay him and keep the youngest occupied as she waits for a turn. Dennis: As [our oldest] has gotten older, she has taken a genuine interest in climbing. Together with mental maturity, which means she requires less constant stimulation and is more patient. 
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kids interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kids interested?  Laura: When they were 4 and under, yes. Now they are happy and engaged during day trips. Dennis: They tend to stay interested on their own. But the kids getting tired is more of a challenge. Especially the little one, which will usually want to be carried at some point of the hike.  
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life?  Laura: I only have time on the weekends. In the winter we ski almost every week - it’s something we all love. Summer activities like camping and hiking aren’t as regular. Dennis: It is very tough during the week. We mostly engage in outdoor activities on the weekends. Since COVID, we have had more time on weekdays, for things like local nature hikes and bike rides, just like lots of other families. 
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kids activities (organized sports, music, school)?  Laura: We’ve boxed all kid activities Into Saturday  morning or weekdays to leave Sundays open. Dennis: It’s very challenging. There just isn’t enough time for everything. There are constant trade-offs. We try our best to talk to the kids and see what they want. 
5. How do you ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? Laura: Pre-COVID my husband went to climbing gym every week at the same time. I just don’t have the copious free time I did before kids and opt to spend my limited free time on other things like gardening, socializing, and yoga. Dennis: We’ve been supportive of each other getting out for “grown up” activities (such as climbing without the kids). But it’s hard to be away from the family all day. 
6. Have you ever received pushback on outdoor parenting from family, friends, or community? If so, how have you handled it? Laura: Not really. People ask questions as it can seem hard to get little kids engaged in outdoor activities but it has always felt like curiosity. Dennis: I wouldn’t say “pushback”. But there is often a perception by folks who don’t participate in outdoor activities like climbing or skiing, that these activities are dangerous. Explaining how these activities work (such as describing a climbing top rope setup) will often get folks to be less critical. 

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kids? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc).  Laura: Mainly seeing friends do it and getting inspired to try with my own kids. Dennis: We’ve had friends who had kids before we did. So we learned a lot watching them interact with their kids while doing outdoor activities. 
2. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Laura: Sharing a ski pass when one parent has to be with baby in the lodge. Nature scavenger hunts on hikes on when waiting for turn climbing. Dennis: I’ve given my kids a little extra climbing motivation by putting candy inside plastic Easter eggs, and placing them on holds or ledges at various points of the climb (both outdoors and at climbing gyms). It does work, although it can backfire as well. One time, I did not bring the eggs, and my daughter was upset “But I want to find an egg!”
3. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake?  Laura: You can’t do things the way you use to. Be flexible with yourself and your kids and have fun! Dennis: Georgia broke her leg skiing last winter. She got going too fast and took a tumble. I don’t think there was really anything I could have done to prevent it. But I kept replaying it in my head for a long time. Georgia has since fully recovered, and is rearing to get back on skis this winter.
4. If you could give one piece of advice to other outdoor families, what would it be? Laura: Get your family out there,  it’s hard when they are wee little ones but I never regretted a single trip. Dennis: Your kids might not end up enjoying all the same activities you do. Show them why you love these activities, and maybe they will, too​
5. What is your favorite piece of gear for outdoor parenting? Laura: For babies/toddlers a good supportive carrier for hikes. Ski harnesses were helpful with toddlers. Dennis: Not specifically outdoor gear, but definitely my favorite: a good camera (not a phone) to capture all those memories. Cameras on phones have come a long way, and obviously win for convenience. But a phone simply can’t match the image quality of a “real” camera in capable hands. I started getting into photography when our first child was born, and that interest has carried over to outdoor activities. My current camera is a mirrorless, full-frame Canon R. My favorite lens for outdoor activities is the 70-200mm, f2.8. It’s a big, heavy lens. But it lets you zoom in on the action. I can get close-up shots of my kids on the rock, or out on the water while standing on shore.

This week we have an interview with an outdoor parent whose children are grown up, so he has the perspective of taking them outdoors through all the stages of childhood. He is also a very experienced at orienteering, which I think is a great way to get kids outside that I haven't tried yet with my kids. He also happens to be my uncle, and when I was a kid I got to go orienteering with them. Enjoy!

This week's post is an update to our Simple Packing section of the Camping page. It has been updated to include our tips for unpacking and some clarification to packing. Here are our tips on unpacking:​

As we have optimized our car camping system over the years, more and more I think the key to fast packing and unpacking is carefully picking what you bring with you. This means being honest with yourself about what you actually will use and understanding how many comfort items you need to still have a good time, without going overboard. This means that you do have to spend some time thinking about this ahead of time and occasionally reconsidering your packing list, as most of us can get sucked into camping lifestyle inflation over time.

One philosophy that has helped me with this is minimalism. This doesn’t mean to bring the bare minimum for survival, it just means to be intentional about each item that you bring with you and don’t toss in a ton of extra stuff that you likely won’t use or won’t use very much. For more reading on the idea, I suggest the blog Becoming Minimalist. 

This philosophy is especially important if you’re only staying a night or two, but if you’re staying longer it can be worth it to indulge in bringing more stuff if you’re more likely to use the items or it might be worth it to you to bring items that make camping more comfortable for you.

The other key technique for us is to develop systems that support fast packing and unpacking. This means:

• If you can, don’t bring so much stuff so you have to zero space the car
  • If you do have a smaller car, develop a packing system of which items go where and stick to the same system
  • Also consider a roof bag if it makes packing faster for you
• Buy a tent that has easy to use stuff-sack
  • For example: one with different compartments for different components instead of lots of small bags for stakes, poles etc
  • The tent should easily fit in the stuff-sack and not require a lot of time to fit it in tightly 
• Have the kids pack up their own clothes and sleeping bags - it helps if they have their own duffle bag
• Have a dishwashing system that you trust enough so you don’t have to wash the dishes a second time when you get home

Note on the dishwashing system: When we have to wash the dishes at home, often those dishes sit around in the kitchen for a while before we get around to putting them away in the camp kitchen, or the kids use them again and then they stick around even longer while you wash them, or the special camping spatula ends up in the regular kitchen stuff so when we go camping there’s no spatula!

Finally, get home with enough time to unpack the vehicle. If you have a fast system, unpacking isn’t much of a burden so you don’t have to get home much earlier. Additionally, unpacking the next day is never fun when you’re all back to work and school, especially if you forget and leave stuff in the cooler and it goes bad.

This is our fast unpacking system: 

• Phase 1 - unpacking the car:
  • Someone unloads the car and puts things in the right general area (example: just inside the front door of the house vs the garage)
  • Someone else puts things in the final destination room (we have our kids do this)
    • For example - duffel bags go to each person’s room, sleeping bags go to the storage spot, food bags and the cooler go to the kitchen
    • Even 3-year-olds can help if you give them simple directions
• Phase 2 - putting items away:
  • One person works on the kitchen unpacking the food bags and the cooler and washing any dishes that are needed
  • One person works on putting away sleeping gear/tents/other camp items
  • Kids take care of their own clothes bags - put toiletries away, put dirty and clean clothes where they belong (help them if they’re too little)

NOTE: this system may need to be modified for your house/storage area layout and the age(s) of your kids

We can unpack in 30 min with this plan and with good teamwork.

This week I'm excited to introduce our friend Shannon. She and her wife are masters of organizing group camping trips, which we have been lucky to be part of for many years now. (They created the camping spreadsheet I shared last week). They have also started taking their kids backpacking and skiing, while impressively managing sports and activity schedules. She is right about how friends help kids hike more - when my kids hike with them they go much farther!

Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had kids? More Skiing and backpacking, kayaking, plus all that we do with kids
2. If you or your spouse were pregnant, did that person continue any of the activities and how did they modify the activity while pregnant? Not really, we got a cushier sleeping pad for car camping. 
3. If you do different activities after having kids, why is that? We haven’t taken the kids paddling yet, but we should be able to do that with our 9 year old soon. Our schedules are busier now with sports and kid activities, so we don’t necessarily prioritize our outdoor activities. We waited until age 7 or so to introduce downhill skiing, but did enjoy cross country skiing when they were young.
4. How old were your kids when you started doing outdoor activities with them? We started camping and hiking when the kids were just a few months old.
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with the kids? Working around the nap schedule! Trying to schedule a hike around a toddler’s nap is tough. 

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as the kids got older? Our schedules have gotten busier! Soccer, swimming, softball teams, birthday parties, etc. The kids are less enthusiastic about hiking now, but that usually dissipates after the first quarter mile. 
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kids interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kids interested? Candy. Lots of candy. Also, we just introduced the kids to geocaching and the kids are surprisingly interested! The best thing is having friends on a hike! Chatting with friends makes the miles fly by! Finding ways to make things fun by singing and playing games while hiking helps. 
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life? We try to get out for a hike every week. During our 2020 Shelter in Place we tried to get out one midweek afternoon each week for a hike. 
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kids activities (organized sports, music, school)? It’s hard! Our balance leans toward a greater commitment to team sports at the detriment of our outdoor adventures. That said, we don’t have a problem with taking off on a Friday after lunch a few times a year to get an early start to a camping weekend. 
5. If you have a partner, how do you ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? We take turns. She likes running so I make sure to be on kid duty so she can run. I play soccer, so she’s on duty then. When we’re outdoors together, we’re both on duty...with some breaks.

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kids? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc). We started with Strollerhikes.com when our oldest was a baby. Then we found a core group of friends who shared our interest in getting outdoors with the kids. Mostly we relied on our outdoor skills from before kids. 
2. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Put the baby/toddler in a snowsuit for chilly nights when camping. Bring extra blankets to pile on in the middle of the night.
3. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake? Not pushing the kids hard enough. They can do so much more than we think they can. 
4. If you could give one piece of advice to other outdoor families, what would it be? It is ok to start small, within your comfort zone. Just get out!
5. What is your favorite piece of gear for outdoor parenting? A small solar powered inflatable lantern. It is lightweight enough for backpacking, but creates a lovely soothing glow in the tent.

This advice is based on our experience camping in groups organized by our good friends who have amazing organization experience.

• Plan for no more than about 6-8 families of about 4 people
• Have one person book a group campsite or multiple campsites that are close together
  • Use the campground maps on the reservation websites to find sites nearby (don’t assume consecutive numbers mean they’re close together!)
• Use a google sheet to like this one that our friends made to organize the planning 
  • Collect information on what gear people are bringing so everyone doesn’t need to bring 1 of everything (for example you don’t need 8 stoves, etc)
  • Keep track of what dietary restrictions everyone has
• Ideas for meal plans:
  • Consider not planning meals the night everyone arrives - people sometimes come late 
  • Divide up the cooking responsibilities so each family cooks once (everyone who doesn’t cook helps clean)
  • Include a make-your-own brown bag lunch station
• Clean up suggestions:
  • Set up dishwashing tubs (soap/rinse)
  • Use a mesh bag for hanging dishes dry
• Organization ideas:
  • If people bring identical items suggest people label stuff (or use climbing tape)
  • Have one central dining spot so kids can eat at one table and parents can make a circle of camp chairs or eat at another table while still supervising
  • Consider bringing a folding table for the “buffet”
• Suggested activities:
  • Plan a group activity, like hiking or playing in a river/lake
  • Bring stuff for campfire/smores
  • Glowsticks (they also come in handy for keeping track of kids in the dark)

For our second interview we are excited to share Karl's experience as an outdoor dad. We have known him and his family for a few years. They are part of a group of families we go on group camping trips with a few times a year, until they moved back to Colorado. I have always been impressed with how they find the time to get into the mountains so often while they both worked full time jobs and also with the impressive hiking stamina of their daughter.

Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had a kid? Pretty much the same with less day hiking and more climbing, mountain biking and trail running.
2. When your spouse was pregnant, she continue any of the activities and how did she modify the activity while pregnant? We tried to keep up the outdoor activities.  We even planned a backpacking trip at about 5 months, but afterward we discovered that she needed to back off a bit.  She also gave up canoeing and climbing and any other activity that had a potential for jostling.
3. If you do different activities after having a kid, why is that? Our activities changed and how we approached those activities changed, partly to accommodate the safety and abilities of our child, but also because we were getting older and slowing down a bit.
4. How old was your kid when you started doing outdoor activities with them? 4 months.
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with your kid? Finding that balance between fun and exhaustion.

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as your kid got older? I’m not sure it has. We still work hard at pushing our child’s limits without harming them or making the activity miserable. Every year she can do more, so we do more.
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kid's interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kid interested? Hiking games! From Fetch the stick to 20 Questions to Name an Ingredient.  The games have changed as she has aged, but they are still very useful as the mileage increases. 
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life? Anyway we can (from maxing out our weekends to taking a six month sabbatical).
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kid's activities (organized sports, music, school)? We have avoided organized sports and have done everything we can to keep our weekends open. 
5. How do you and your partner ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? We have settled on a group of activities that we can all enjoy together. 
6. Have you ever received pushback on outdoor parenting from family, friends, or community? No.

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kid? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc) We have pretty much learned by trial and error.  We just kept doing what we liked to do and tweaked things along the way. Early on, I was also involved in a Bay Area group called Stroller Hikes, that organized mid-week hikes with the littles. They are still up and running and can be found at strollerhikes.com.
2. If you’re a writer, what are the blog posts, articles, books, videos that you have written/created that you think would most help other families?  Back when our daughter was little and I had more time, I published a blog with tons of stories and photos from our earlier adventures. It’s quite a good snapshot of our transition from an adventurous couple to adventurous parents. I currently have aspirations of adding some of our more recent long treks and the planning involved in making them happen. The blog can be found at somehowlost.com
3. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Just get outside. Go early and often.
4. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake? This one is hard.  I don’t want to say we didn’t make any mistakes, but honestly none of them mattered. We now have a daughter that is just as addicted to the outdoors as we are.

We are so excited to introduce our first interview of an Outdoor Parent! We are hoping to do about two of these each month and use this information to improve our information pages. If you're interested in being interviewed, please contact us.

​Transitioning to parenthood:

1. What outdoor activities did you do before you had kids? Hiking, camping, backpacking, climbing.
2. When you were pregnant did you continue any of the activities and how did they modify the activity while pregnant? When I was pregnant I continued all activities while pregnant with modifications. I didn't backpack after the first trimester (mostly because I was tired and not interested in carrying any more weight) and I climbed only at the gym (not outdoors) while pregnant. Hiking and car camping had no modifications.
3. If you do different activities after having kids, why is that? No change
4. How old were your kids when you started doing outdoor activities with them? 1-2 months started hiking. Car camping around 6 months? Backpacking around 1 year. Climbing for parents went along with car camping. Climbing for kids around 3 years.
5. What was your biggest challenge when you started doing outdoor activities with the kids? Adjusting expectations for how big/high/far/fast we would go. Balancing adult fun and kid fun so everyone has a good time. But really it's been amazing. I remember our first J Tree trip when Evelyn was about 18 months old. She ran around in the dirt for hours chasing after the other kids and having a tremendous time. It was amazing to sit in a chair and not have to entertain her. It was the first time that I realized a pack of kids + nature actually can increase adult free time and relaxation. I've made sure to take advantage of the phenomenon as much as possible since then.

Outdoor parenting:

1. How have these challenges changed as the kids got older? Do my kids count as older yet, lol? My 6 year old is starting to have more opinions about what she wants to do, but so far she loves nature activities. Probably the biggest challenge has been motivating her to hike, since she isn't very easy to carry anymore. See below!
2. Do you have trouble maintaining the kids interest in the activity (ie during a long hike) and if you do, how do you keep the kids interested? Yes, I have trouble with this. The things that have worked include 1) hiking with other kids so they play together along the trail, 2) Carrying a giant box of blueberries for trail tag. The game is "whoever touches the next tree/log/rock/etc up ahead gets a blueberry!" This game has been known to carry Evelyn and her hiking friends shockingly far (several miles), even with significant elevation gain. 3) Adjusting adult expectations about stopping. Stopping more than we want to to explore, talk, snack, etc. Then continuing on. 4) Giving in and carrying her part of the way. She's only ~45 lb.
3. How do you fit the activities into your working life? Right now we are satisfied with planning ~4 - 6 trips/year and doing a lot of local hiking. We are fortunate that most of our family is close so our vacation time is generally spent in the outdoors. This could be a long weekend or a longer trip. We also built a climbing wall in the backyard for at-home free play. This seems to fit with the amount of time we have free.
4. How do you balance outdoor activities with kids activities (organized sports, music, school)? Because I'm a teacher, my vacation time generally lines up with the school year for my kids. I mostly restrict kid activities to the afterschool program Evelyn attends. If she's doing something on a weekend like swimming or gymnastics, I am fine with her missing a class and swallowing the money if we have another plan.
5. If you have a partner, how do you ensure that both of you can keep doing your outdoor activities? It's mostly about scheduling trips that work for our schedules. He is busier than I am at work, so I often will take weekend trips with other families that he can't attend. Neither of us really do outdoor activities sans kids. Kids are just part of our life now and they are generally included. We do occasionally rely on sitters to allow us to climb together. This takes the form of swapping childcare with another family, or getting paid help. We found ourselves stranded in Red Rock Nevada once when another family skipped out our planned trip and we were able to find childcare at a local kids gym in Las Vegas (Evelyn was around 2 or 3yrs). We would wake up, drive her into the childcare, then book it back to the rocks, climb something shorter and then dash back to pick her up by 5pm.

Summary/Conclusion:

1. What resources helped you figure out how to do these outdoor activities with your kids? (books, friends, groups, blogs, etc) Rock Rugratz, our babysitting co-op group (Oaktown Babyswap) that we do at least one trip/year with, and trading tips with other active parents.​
2. What is your favorite outdoor parenting hack? Rather than mess around with a million sleeping mats in the tent, I pack one big egg crate foam for all of us to share. This is nice and comfy on my hips too, which are less resilient than they used to be.
3. What is your biggest outdoor parenting mistake? One time I led a group of families to a climb in The Pinnacles. In my mind the climb had a simple approach and nice flat ground for the kids to play. My memory did not serve me well that day, it was a sloped ravine with a drop-off and there were a lot of toddlers tied to ropes that day.
4. If you could give one piece of advice to other outdoor families, what would it be? Definitely try camping/climbing with another family or two. It keeps the kids busy, provides social time for everyone, and gives the parents flexibility to support each other's activities.
5. What is your favorite piece of gear for outdoor parenting? My daughter had trouble with nature peeing for a long time. The Go Girl was a life saver. I even started taking it to the local playgrounds at home so she could step behind a bush if needed.

See all of our interviews here, where you can browse through them by keywords and locations.

Just like most of you, we love to go on short weekend camping trips between busy work weeks, especially when we can get out with other families. But nothing ruins a short weekend of camping more than starting it off leaving late Friday night because packing takes too long. Then you can end up getting stressed out, yelling at your kids, and fighting with your spouse. Which never happens to us....

What follows are our recommendations for avoiding that.

Our high level recommendations:

• Pack as much as possible ahead of time
• Keep the packing list simple - don’t bring all the toys (for kids or grown-ups)
• Dedicate certain items to camping so they're always ready to go

Our packing list:

1. ​Sleeping stuff (sleeping bags, pads, headlamps)
2. Tent
3. Camp kitchen (stove, fuel, box of kitchen stuff) and camp chairs
4. Small daypack for each person with a few personal items (book, water bottle, small toys or hiking entertainment, first aid kit, etc)
5. Clothes & toiletries
6. Food
7. Last minute items (pillows, books, wallet, cellphone)

The packing is divided into 3 sections:

• Pack ahead of time - always ready to go (Items 1, 2, 3): These should be stored in easy to reach places
• Pack ahead of time - assembly required (items 4 & 5): Hand out packing lists to each family member, one person to ensure it gets done and packed
• Last minute (items 6 & 7): Pack right before leaving​

Other recommendations:

• Use packing cubes - one color per family member, use two sided ones with one side labelled dirty and one clean
• Use one duffel bag for all packing cubes
• Keep the hiking backpacks stored ready to go with water bladders and any hiking toys for the kids
• Keep the camping kitchen in a storage box close to the kitchen so it's quick to clean everything and restock it, ensuring it's always ready to go
• Create laminated packing lists and cross off items that aren't needed for that particular trip before handing it out to everyone to pack
• Use packing lists with drawings for the kids who can't read yet

Using these tips, we can usually pack for a weekend trip in less than 1 hr ahead of time plus 30 min the day of and then unpack in less than 1 hr.

One final note: when you're packing for a short trip, don't spend too much time ensuring you have every single item on your packing list (except of course for any especially critical or life-saving items). The extra time required to go from 95% correct to 100% correct can be 1-2 hours which isn't often worth it for a short trip. If you do forget something, use it as a teaching opportunity for the kids to learn how to live without having everything. We have a long list of items we have forgotten on trips and it makes for good stories. (Like when our daughter had only climbing shoes instead of regular shoes for an entire weekend, or when we forgot the fuel last weekend.)